tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post7255431267997664159..comments2024-02-24T19:21:34.287-08:00Comments on Cabinet of Wonders: If We Only Had Twelve FingersHeather McDougalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09683209580852572301noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-27317088144012893992010-10-12T00:59:41.872-07:002010-10-12T00:59:41.872-07:00thats really nice post... very nice to come here.....thats really nice post... very nice to come here... i appreciate your work... thanks for the sharing :)Logo Design UKhttp://logoonlinepros.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-14049807271038064022010-10-11T22:27:49.958-07:002010-10-11T22:27:49.958-07:00"A pint's a pound the world around"...."A pint's a pound the world around". I thought that had something to do with the price of beer for just the longest time. <br />As a musician of some seniority, though, I must go on record as opposing any attempt to introduce a ten tone musical scale.<br />OTOH, my sisters in law (all from SA or EU) all seem to operate on the metric clock (which I introduced in an article in The Journal of Irreproducible Results sometime around 1980) using the 100 minute hour. Thjey consistently will say "I'll be there in half an hour" which equals 50 minutes.JChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02448124833598565813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-45240083601234441452010-09-20T03:21:55.167-07:002010-09-20T03:21:55.167-07:00Very interesting post and very good comments to bo...Very interesting post and very good comments to boot! Yet it still seems like the objection to the metric system is entirely from a romantic perspective. Certainly, the metric system (with Celsius) was made for science but as much as people were taught the new system instead of the old ones, it is wrong to view it simply as a replacement. After all, cubits, feet and inches are still with us.<br /><br />My personal objections to the imperial system partly stem from the fact that they are not even the same as American measurements (what is with that?) and that not even Brits grown up with it can easily convert between scales. I once asked, out of curiosity, how much a friend weighed in pounds only. He had no idea; he couldn't remember how many pounds there are to a stone. And neither could three other Britons in the same room.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-24579833038627624662010-09-16T11:04:04.265-07:002010-09-16T11:04:04.265-07:00ooooh...i so enjoyed his post! i've had vague,...ooooh...i so enjoyed his post! i've had vague, unquantifiable objections to the metric system ever since being exposed to it; i attributed this to my general lack of mathematical (though not logical or scientific) ability, to a Luddite tendency, to aesthetics, and also to a gut feeling that there was a significant element of hubris in creating and foisting this system on large numbers of people. i LIKE small. i LIKE culturally conditioned. i don't like monolithic, industrialized, globalized, whatever-ized force-fed uniformity. your post brought clear the underlying causes of my instinctive dislike of metric usage.nofixedstarshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15514617120008201743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-56630778965323541352010-09-16T07:41:33.943-07:002010-09-16T07:41:33.943-07:00Oh yes, I forgot to mention, great post by the way...Oh yes, I forgot to mention, great post by the way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-69620752494355500282010-09-16T07:39:36.609-07:002010-09-16T07:39:36.609-07:00As a nerdy anthropologist I just want to chime in ...As a nerdy anthropologist I just want to chime in too. I recall from way back in graduate school that the base 12 (and base 16) are very old indo-european systems. We do have these makrers on our hands as well if you look beyond the blatantly obvious. Base twelve is easy to calculate as each finger has three parts so each hand is a 12 unit calculator. Base 16 is more rare (not really related to 16ths found in inches as that is half and half and half). You can count base 16 by using the creases of each finger plus the tip.<br /><br />Now the Babylonian base 60 still hiding in our system...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-62361960603599585312010-09-10T08:45:31.587-07:002010-09-10T08:45:31.587-07:00My friend Ben writes to me to say this:
"I l...My friend Ben writes to me to say this:<br /><br />"I love the anthropocentric methods of measurement that spawned the inch (knuckle to knuckle) the cubit (forearm), the yard (fingers to mid-chest), the pace (footstep) the foot etc. I love how human they are. The measurements are a part of us in a way that the meter never will be. They are human-scaled and meant for phenomological observation and understanding of the world. Something, that in our mechanistic world of precision, should be nurtured so that it is not altogether driven from us.<br /><br />"The ancient systems of measurement and counting (which I am to some extent conflating unfairly) are largely based on our own bodies but also rely greatly on the divisions of circles by ancient astrologers/shamans/geomancers. We divide time into sixes and twelves being based on Mesopotamian divisions of the circle by walking its radius. Their whole number system was base-6 due to those circle divisions (and also the 360 degrees in a circle is based on the divisions of walking the circle. Of course 360 was this really perfect multiple of 6 so they were quite annoyed to find a full year was 365 1/4 days -- a much more fractious number. They conveiniently swept that under the rug by declaring 5 and 1/4 days somehow stolen or created by gods or magical beings (think Horus and Khons and their game of senet in Egyptian mythology)<br /><br />"I agree the metric system is somewhat inhuman and less likely to evoke hestian sympathies. But westerners from the Roman/Byzantine/Arabic traditions have been base-10 for several millenium now, and in truth I think the ancient systems make for a messy job when trying to translate them into our number system. Even our spoken words have tend to be muddled on the matter on what number system we're using (what the heck are these "elevens" and a "twelves"? They are not "teens" which come from "ten" and they are not one of the first nine ordinals. If we are base-10 shouldn't we speak as the Japanese speak -- ju-ichi, ju-ni? In their language place value is inherent in the word)<br /><br />"I think it is often confusing to many children -- and most come out as adults with poor understanding of how numbers work. The US and England are two of the very few hold-outs (and perennial underacheivers in their Math scoring) and my guess it does not help us to teach kids to have a better number sense when we continue to use a base ten to count but we still use these ancient systems to go about the math that is involved in our daily lives. We spend almost a year and a half worth of time in school trying to help them manipulate fractions in weight, measure, and abstractly because our systems needed to do these things are quite awkward in base-10 when we aren't using decimals or metrics. Then we spend an additional 1/2 year trying to teach them to convert from fraction to decimal and back. Plus, because only use the decimal systems some of the time, we don't get steady reinforcement of the skill.<br /><br />"It is wonderfully anthropocentric to use these ancient systems, and maybe that is best. But it could also be considered egocentric in an international age. <br /><br />"Maybe this is good, though. You're right, the metric system is indeed an excessively rational system, with all irrationality of rationality built right into it for all the world to see (a la old David Hume). The perfect pentagon is near impossible to build from a circle -- it's construction a secret held closely by many occult religions. And it is a symbol of divine construction, whereas the hexagon is for humankind to use. And look what we have done with it -- our awesome architecture, our machines and our spaceships and our sciences. It's as if we have stolen yet another sacred fire, we have eaten yet another apple...<br /><br />"Which, I guess, is an interesting remark on the technological wonders that have been spawned by our rationality, as represented by our decimal system...perhaps a bit unnatural -- almost monstrous..."Heather McDougalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09683209580852572301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-12523283427414737182010-09-09T18:37:39.472-07:002010-09-09T18:37:39.472-07:00An advantage of nondecimal systems is that fractio...An advantage of nondecimal systems is that fractions of the smallest unit tend to be binary. For example, if you see a nut that's about half an inch, you confidently grab the half-inch socket. 3/8 is substantially smaller, and no one would use 9/16 or 15/32 without a reason.<br /><br />Contrast metric: half an inch is 12 or 13 mm, or 11 or 14 maybe. There's no good reason to prefer one to another, so you'll need all those sockets.<br /><br />Odd that we're standardizing on decimal when we've come to realize that binary is a good thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-41761248981361349472010-09-09T11:41:52.264-07:002010-09-09T11:41:52.264-07:00I can use both, but much prefer the old Imperial s...I can use both, but much prefer the old Imperial system of inches and feet, yards and miles, pounds and so forth. Partly because I'm in my 30s and British, but also because I am an old school role-player brought up on D&D :)Simon Forsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243845335993440168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-9723610467543376562010-09-09T07:01:19.090-07:002010-09-09T07:01:19.090-07:00Also: I'm 35 from Australia in case you're...Also: I'm 35 from Australia in case you're wondering.<br /><br />Mero until you mentioned it I had no idea that English was your second language :)Patriciahttp://pdvirtualgallery.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-45507980480278835812010-09-09T06:59:32.549-07:002010-09-09T06:59:32.549-07:00As someone who has grown up with the metric system...As someone who has grown up with the metric system in both measurements and currency I have no issue with it, echoing the sentiments of my fellow metric commenters.Patriciahttp://pdvirtualgallery.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-36466852753972874322010-09-08T22:47:16.079-07:002010-09-08T22:47:16.079-07:00Of course, since I grew up with the decimal system...Of course, since I grew up with the decimal system, I find it the most logical system in the world. Except for eggs. It would be silly and awkward to have just 5 if you didn't want to buy 10 (I seem to recall that I have seen eggs sold by 10 in Holland but no 5 boxes, only 4 or 6).spacedlawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12462723005560128474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-66488284906382525092010-09-08T15:41:33.530-07:002010-09-08T15:41:33.530-07:00"in 1670, Gabriel Mouton, a French abbot and ..."in 1670, Gabriel Mouton, a French abbot and scientist, proposed a decimal system of measurement based on the circumference of the Earth" : this is where it begin to get interesting.<br /><br />Since the decimal system was based on the circumference of the Earth (1 meter = 10^–7 Q, where Q is the quarter of the meridian), they needed to have an exact mesure of the meridian. <br />So from 1792 to 1799, Jean-Baptiste Joseph Delambre and Pierre Méchain where send on an scientific expedition across Europe to triangulate the distance from England to spain.<br /><br />It took them 7 years, but they manage to get a mesure of the meridian. There was only one small problem ... A small anomaly in the measurements of the ark ... Pierre Méchain was so obsessed with it that he refused to publish his result and return to Spain to start again the measurement. He died there from the yellow fever.<br /><br />They didn't know yet that they'd just managed to prove that the earth was not a perfect sphere ... and so the merdian was not a valid base for the metric system :)<br /><br />some links :<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_M%C3%A9chain<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Baptiste_Joseph_Delambre<br />http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_de_la_Terre_et_m%C3%A9ridienne_de_Delambre_et_M%C3%A9chain (in french)<br /><br />a book about this events, haven't read it : http://www.amazon.com/Measure-All-Things-Seven-Year-Transformed/dp/0743216768/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283984729&sr=8-1Christophehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16172894537903702983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-39325738013383320852010-09-08T14:28:10.230-07:002010-09-08T14:28:10.230-07:00I've always wondered how countries that have k...I've always wondered how countries that have kept the Imperial system could find it practical while counting numbers with a 10-base system, so it I had a lot of fun reading your article ^^<br /><br />"We don't think in fives", you say. However, living in Argentina, where we use the metric system, at least <i>we</i> do think in 5s, and 10s too!<br /><br />As we've also kept dozens and grosses for stuff such as pastries (!) and eggs, I can also think rather comfortably in 2s, 3s, 4s and 6s. If you add that up to our decimal 5s and 10s, I think we have quite a large scope of basic divisors to perform everyday operations. And measuring distances, area, capacity, etc is a lot more comfortable when you can go up and down leves instantaneously, as you've said.<br /><br />After reading your post it gave me the impression it was more a matter of taste and custom. It's natural for someone who has grown using the imperial system to find it more comfortable than the metric, and both have their strengths and weaknesses. Yet, I believe the metric system is more useful in our (post)modern world, when we have to think not as much in countable goods but in services, money, really small or big distances, etc.<br /><br />(sorry for my English!)Merohttp://q_of_clubs.livejournal.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4843157625045099797.post-58747320061807915822010-09-08T14:16:35.650-07:002010-09-08T14:16:35.650-07:00Well said. Although I understand and can/do use th...Well said. Although I understand and can/do use the metric system I am not comfortable with it. I may speak it but I think in feet and inches as well as pounds and ounces. Having been an aviator and a mariner most of my life I prefer nautical miles. <br />Dividing your fingers into quarters or thirds would be painful. <br />I never cared for Celsius either.Oldfoolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14688289425207257034noreply@blogger.com